Is soft carbon 1018 steel better than Mizuno 1025E?

Hi,

Some claim that softer steel, like the 1018 carbon steel used e.g. in the Scratch Golf AR1 irons, is far better than the 1025 steel used by Mizuno as far as feel goes. Can anyone please elaborate on this statement?

I'm about to purchase new irons and MP68, MP58 and the Scratch Golf AR1 are the contenders so far ... Ruled out Titleist, Cleveland and a few others already.

Regards,
Dex

If you want to get really technical about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel
With the following page explaining the steel grades:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_steel_grades
And if your seriously wondering why Mizuno has a E behind their 1025, read this as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_arc_furnace

In short, the 1025E has more carbon in it, the E is just a letter for the steel-making process.
But the 1025E should be softer, cause it's more carbon.
That concludes the science part

Is it better, well, that's up to you, there's not really a scale on what's the better steel for golf. Although softer makes more sense.

Might just wan't to go try both, see how they feel, and then end up buying the Mizuno anyhow...

Mizo wrote:

Might just wan't to go try both, see how they feel, and then end up buying the Mizuno anyhow...

+1

Just to found that this discussion was far ahaed in other sites... but this might add some fire to this forum!

The original post:
http://www.golftoimpress.com/2010/03/how-much-do-you-think-you-know-about-japanese-golf-club-manufacturing-part-1/

And the post that contains Scratch answer:
http://www.golftoimpress.com/2010/03/1018-controversy-update-scratch-responds/

Does anyone from Mizuno cares to coment?

I don't know a thing about steel but I know I like the way that Mizuno clubs feel and for me that's enough!

hvcarvalho wrote:

Just to found that this discussion was far ahaed in other sites... but this might add some fire to this forum!

It's a pretty interesting read, I'll have to say that. Specially how the guy doctored out what kinds of steel are even available in Japan.

You might just want to Scratch the other brand from your list and go for Mizuno.
Cause what you can also read in the article is that Scratch buys the head designs and doesn't do R&D.
If your having to choose between MP-58 or MP-68, those are pretty recent head designs.

So might just do yourself a favor and stick with 'real' brands.
A good rule to follow when buying practically anything:
If you have to try hard to convince yourself of the quality of a product, it's not the quality you expect, and you should look elsewhere.

This is a little technical for me.

Here's an explanation from our R&D guys.

"In a 1025 steel the "25" represents 0.25% carbon in the steel. This will be a softer steel metallurgically than 1035 (0.35%) and 1018 (0.18%) steel is metallurgically softer than that. What that really boils down to though is the softness to bend and the softness to forge, not necessarily the softness a player feels in their hands. As the carbon content goes up, the metal is more brittle and thus easier to crack, and as it goes does, it is less brittle, and almost more "liquidy" if that adjective makes any sense in that it's easier to bend and manipulate. With that being said, a 1018 isn't going to last as long or hold its specs as long (a forged iron will tend to flatten out over time). The 1025 is a good combination of strength and durability.

Where the soft feel of a Mizuno really comes from is the Grain Flow Forging along with the Sound Design Engineering. By precisely controlling the grain flow from heel to toe, and ensuring long, tight, consistent grains, the soft feel is maximized. Think about the ding test....the grain flow forging along with the design of the head (strategically reinforced areas) are what make the head vibrate as it does and feel how it does. It's not just the literal softness of the material. "

Joshella wrote:

This is a little technical for me.

Here's an explanation from our R&D guys.

"In a 1025 steel the "25" represents 0.25% carbon in the steel. This will be a softer steel metallurgically than 1035 (0.35%) and 1018 (0.18%) steel is metallurgically softer than that. What that really boils down to though is the softness to bend and the softness to forge, not necessarily the softness a player feels in their hands. As the carbon content goes up, the metal is more brittle and thus easier to crack, and as it goes does, it is less brittle, and almost more "liquidy" if that adjective makes any sense in that it's easier to bend and manipulate. With that being said, a 1018 isn't going to last as long or hold its specs as long (a forged iron will tend to flatten out over time). The 1025 is a good combination of strength and durability.

Where the soft feel of a Mizuno really comes from is the Grain Flow Forging along with the Sound Design Engineering. By precisely controlling the grain flow from heel to toe, and ensuring long, tight, consistent grains, the soft feel is maximized. Think about the ding test....the grain flow forging along with the design of the head (strategically reinforced areas) are what make the head vibrate as it does and feel how it does. It's not just the literal softness of the material. "

Great explanation!! Thanks J.

Joshella wrote:

By precisely controlling the grain flow from heel to toe, and ensuring long, tight, consistent grains, the soft feel is maximized.

This reminds me of something on forging I saw Discovery Channel.
Basically they were making a katana, and because of the hammering on the steel, on a molecular level, the steel would be all messed up, with the molecules that made up the steel being unequally spread around inside the steel. So structurally it wasn't as strong as it could be.
They had to normalize the steel, which I guess is something Mizuno has to do as well.
Now the thing is, when you normalize the steel, it can actually break or incur imperfections.
If 1018 steel is more brittle, you might have a hard time 'repairing' it on a molecular level.

Mizuno 1025E "Pure Select" Mild Carbon Steel:

Meets 6 times tighter tolerance than industry standard for Carbon content. Same as 1025 "Select".

1025E also has 3 times tighter tolerance for Phosphorus and 5 times tighter tolerance for Sulfur compared to industry standards.

1025E Pure Select has the same mechanical properties and grain structure as 1025 select, except the higher purity level increases resistance to metal fatigue (fatigue stress)

Our patented forging process includes stretching and bending steps which tightens and aligns the grains of the steel throughout the length of the mold before forging. No one can duplicate that process.